*Important note: The Roman rite denomination of Christianity isn’t “Catholic” although they name themselves that. “Catholic” means “universal”. The true universal Church is Christ’s Church and doesn’t have denominational distinction, biblically. Enjoy the exchange below.
“In Protestant theology, ongoing sin never changes your justification. It only changes the narrative about whether you were justified in the first place.”
We are justified by Grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
“If you persevere, you were truly saved.
If you fall away, you were never saved.
So how do you know you are justified right now? By your present faith and obedience, but those only count if they endure to the end.”
This isn’t a true representation of all denominations’ teachings. Such generalizations foster an exclusivity that doesn’t represent Christ’s Church. Such theological disputations are interesting but do not further Jesus’ commission to share the Gospel. “Truly saved” isn’t the issue. Truly believe IS the issue. Jesus knows who does. That is the essential as Jesus told us. “Works” (behaviors, actions) are fruits of salvation. We work and grow into them. Representing only a segment of denominational theology doesn’t foster exchange nor evangelism.
“Which means assurance today rests on future perseverance you do not yet know you possess.”
This also isn’t true, generally only of SOME denominations. Generalizations such as this alienate others and don’t futher the work of sharing the Gospel.
“You are saved if you persevere.
You persevere because you are saved.
If you don’t persevere, you never were.”
Again the root and key essential is to BELIEVE (truly believe). Jesus knows, we can’t proclaim belief or not onto other humans of flesh.
“That makes justification unfalsifiable in the present and renders apostasy impossible by definition. Salvation cannot be lost, only reclassified. The believer is told, “You are secure,” but also, “If you fall away, you never were.” That is retrospective theology.”
Again, a generalization of all denominational teachings. Not helpful. It isn’t that complicated if your “theology” is The Word. “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law” Romans 3:28 and “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1 Again, belief on Jesus is the only justification key.
“Catholic theology is far more sober. You can truly be in grace and truly fall from it. The warnings of Scripture describe a real danger, not a diagnostic test. Grace is participation in divine life, not merely a legal label that cannot be undone. Restoration is real because loss is real.”
If your belief on Jesus is true, Grace is the gift of God. Our Lord is not an Indian giver. Works are driven by this Grace. “for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is the redemption for all. Believe on Him and His Gospel and accept this free gift of Grace.
“One system distorts justification by redefining every fall as “never justified.” The other takes Scripture’s warnings at face value.”
Again this is a generalization of all denominational teaching which isn’t true. More specificity would be helpful in this conversation.
“And historically, only one of these views is apostolic and continuous. The other emerges in the 16th century as a rupture, a theological reconstruction built on the private judgments of men who severed themselves from the historic Church.”
Followers of Christ, historically (16th Century), severed themselves from a Roman rite denomination rife with corruption and extra biblical teaching and false teachings, seeking the actual Word of God to formulate their method of following Jesus. The “Orthodox” denomination(s) in the East similarly severed themselves over arguments about the authority of MEN. The only true authority is Jesus and His Word.
Christ’s Church isn’t exclusive to any denomination, regardless of their various claims. It isn’t dependent on “traditions” on ritual ceremonies, apparel or man made “offices”. Claims of “Apostolic” succession are belied by the actual practices and actions of various claimants to special offices. Study the Church. The early Church and the denominations claiming primacy. It’s very instructive. Councils, the proclamations of men, the writing of the early Church fathers can be instructive, very instructive. They aren’t authoritative however. The Authority is Jesus and His Word. Believe on Him truly and there is your salvation. Your faith will drive your works (fruits) and you will grow in your walk, closer to Him and in your own witness of the Gospel. If the denomination you worship with brings people to Jesus we aren’t opposed to you. Even if we have non-essential “theological” differences. We seek not to contend with men but FOR The Word of God.
Discussion with a “Catholic” (Roman rite denomination)
*Important note: The Roman rite denomination of Christianity isn’t “Catholic” although they name themselves that. “Catholic” means “universal”. The true universal Church is Christ’s Church and doesn’t have denominational distinction, biblically. Enjoy the exchange below.
“In Protestant theology, ongoing sin never changes your justification. It only changes the narrative about whether you were justified in the first place.”
We are justified by Grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
“If you persevere, you were truly saved.
If you fall away, you were never saved.
So how do you know you are justified right now? By your present faith and obedience, but those only count if they endure to the end.”
This isn’t a true representation of all denominations’ teachings. Such generalizations foster an exclusivity that doesn’t represent Christ’s Church. Such theological disputations are interesting but do not further Jesus’ commission to share the Gospel. “Truly saved” isn’t the issue. Truly believe IS the issue. Jesus knows who does. That is the essential as Jesus told us. “Works” (behaviors, actions) are fruits of salvation. We work and grow into them. Representing only a segment of denominational theology doesn’t foster exchange nor evangelism.
“Which means assurance today rests on future perseverance you do not yet know you possess.”
This also isn’t true, generally only of SOME denominations. Generalizations such as this alienate others and don’t futher the work of sharing the Gospel.
“You are saved if you persevere.
You persevere because you are saved.
If you don’t persevere, you never were.”
Again the root and key essential is to BELIEVE (truly believe). Jesus knows, we can’t proclaim belief or not onto other humans of flesh.
“That makes justification unfalsifiable in the present and renders apostasy impossible by definition. Salvation cannot be lost, only reclassified. The believer is told, “You are secure,” but also, “If you fall away, you never were.” That is retrospective theology.”
Again, a generalization of all denominational teachings. Not helpful. It isn’t that complicated if your “theology” is The Word. “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law” Romans 3:28 and “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1 Again, belief on Jesus is the only justification key.
“Catholic theology is far more sober. You can truly be in grace and truly fall from it. The warnings of Scripture describe a real danger, not a diagnostic test. Grace is participation in divine life, not merely a legal label that cannot be undone. Restoration is real because loss is real.”
If your belief on Jesus is true, Grace is the gift of God. Our Lord is not an Indian giver. Works are driven by this Grace. “for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is the redemption for all. Believe on Him and His Gospel and accept this free gift of Grace.
“One system distorts justification by redefining every fall as “never justified.” The other takes Scripture’s warnings at face value.”
Again this is a generalization of all denominational teaching which isn’t true. More specificity would be helpful in this conversation.
“And historically, only one of these views is apostolic and continuous. The other emerges in the 16th century as a rupture, a theological reconstruction built on the private judgments of men who severed themselves from the historic Church.”
Followers of Christ, historically (16th Century), severed themselves from a Roman rite denomination rife with corruption and extra biblical teaching and false teachings, seeking the actual Word of God to formulate their method of following Jesus. The “Orthodox” denomination(s) in the East similarly severed themselves over arguments about the authority of MEN. The only true authority is Jesus and His Word.
Christ’s Church isn’t exclusive to any denomination, regardless of their various claims. It isn’t dependent on “traditions” on ritual ceremonies, apparel or man made “offices”. Claims of “Apostolic” succession are belied by the actual practices and actions of various claimants to special offices. Study the Church. The early Church and the denominations claiming primacy. It’s very instructive. Councils, the proclamations of men, the writing of the early Church fathers can be instructive, very instructive. They aren’t authoritative however. The Authority is Jesus and His Word. Believe on Him truly and there is your salvation. Your faith will drive your works (fruits) and you will grow in your walk, closer to Him and in your own witness of the Gospel. If the denomination you worship with brings people to Jesus we aren’t opposed to you. Even if we have non-essential “theological” differences. We seek not to contend with men but FOR The Word of God.
Published in Bible, Church History, Commentary, Fellowship of Believers and Prepared Warriors